Release Date: August 13, 2011
发布日：2011年8月13日
Topic: Tyrants Must be Destroyed (Wei Jingsheng’s Interview by Greenpeace Magazine in Germany)
标题：必须摧毁暴君（德国《绿色和平》杂志对魏京生的采访）
中国：必须摧毁暴君
-- 魏京生生命中的十八年在监狱中度过，这个著名的中国异议份子对于所谓通过和平反抗能够战胜压迫，持怀疑的态度
以下是记者访谈，黑体字是记者提问。
魏先生，在阿拉伯国家接连发生了茉莉花革命，中共政府害怕了吗?
是呀！非常害怕。中共政府马上中断和封锁了互联网，许多人不知道发生了什么。
在埃及，军队起了关键的作用，在中国，革命可能从军队开始吗?
中共多年来害怕的就是这个，因此对军队不断重组。这里有个关键的区别就是，中国的军队几乎是中共党的私人军队，而不是象埃及的那样对国家负责。
您的生命在监狱里度过了18年，这段时间有什么经历。
肉体上的暴力伤害是由其他犯人执行的，被受到教唆的同牢犯人必须殴打你。但心理上的苦刑更为残酷。这使许多政治犯无法忍受。而我当年被确诊患有心脏病，于是邓小平安排将我转到海拔3000米以上的一所监狱。
您的心脏病是在监狱里患上的吗?
在监狱允许你家人看望你吗?
在我入狱几年以后，在我多次申请之下才允许家人探视。那时我母亲已经去世。我的妹妹们和弟弟有时会看望我。我的父亲已经很老，无法来探望--这样也许更好，他这个人很情绪化，也许会说给他带来风险的话。
您的父亲是个坚信的共产党员而且是高级干部，他是怎么看待你的作为?
在心里深处他当然站在我这一边。但是他仍然总是对我说，我的反对活动行不通，是没有用的。
您长年被单独监禁，过了这么多年，您是怎么做到再同人打交道?
我从未有过完全与世隔绝的感觉。不是还有警卫吗？即使他们不是公开在我这边，到底他们也是人，并有人的感情。
您批判那些和中国做生意的西方国家。应该怎么和中国打交道？隔离吗？
做生意没有什么不好，只要是过程是公平的。可是发生了很多事情，出乎我们想像。
您有一次说过，我们不仅仅必须关心中国的民主，也要关心西方的。
是的，对西方国家没有太大希望，他们与中国进行频繁的贸易来往。特别是安吉拉·梅尔克作为曾经在东德生活过的人，我原来希望更多，可是她与这个政府的关系竟然比美国还近。不仅是政治家被大企业收买了，甚至个别人权组织也一样，简直令我认不出来了。十年前他们做得更多一些。现在他们甚至为独裁者说话。这就使得民主国家在第三世界国家的名誉受到影响。
去年异议人士刘晓波获得诺贝尔和平奖，您表示不赞成，为什么？
很多人比刘更应得这一奖项。而且西方人有个误解：他们总以为，这个人在中国国内反政府-- 一定很特别。这是胡说。想想看：如果一个反对者在这个国家内能够不断活动和写文章，只能是因为他与政府有交易并达成了妥协。在很长的时间里，刘的文章是得到政府批准的。刘被政府所利用。中共政府经常将呼吁和平反抗的人士制造成“最喜爱的反对派”，以此来控制和颠覆真正的反对力量。
这么说和平反抗是行不通的?
人们自然是希望能够通过和平与理性的方法解决问题，但是必须先明确，如何定义“理性”。 理性化的和平反抗只有在与理性行事的对手打交道的情况下才能行得通，暴君是不会理性行事的，人们无法对他们理性相待，人们必须将暴君摧毁，才能建立一个尊重理性的社会。即使已经建立了民主制度，有时也必须使用武力，比如通过警察和军队。所谓永远丢弃武力这一梦想，和共产主义梦想一样--最后总会导向反面结果: 独裁者取得胜利，人们更加深受暴力之害。我倒要问问你们德国人: 你们当年能够和平和非暴力地结束纳粹政权吗?
你呼吁中国人民因此拿起武器?
不，这倒没有。但是中国人自己知道使用和平手段不会取得进展。哪怕罢工也是一种暴力反抗形式-- 而且是非常有效的。上万人阻断大街--您还能称之为一次和平示威吗？而这是有效的。人们需要一个真正能够使人达到目标的策略，而不是和平反抗的宣教。在这方面，西方人和中国人的看法距离越来越远。以至于那些在中国宣扬和平反抗的人或者被中国人看作政府傀儡，或者被假设为想以此从西方获得经费者。
是不是经济资助对于反抗组织是没有用的？
仅仅是经济资助是不够的。比如优施卡·费施。他和个别绿党的友人过去经济支援过这些人。可是当他成为外交部长以后，真正有可能有所作为的情况下，他反而缩手了。他总是推拒责任。最后证明他也不过是个廉价的政客。令我非常失望。
是美国总统比尔·克林顿把您接到西方来的。
是的，对此我非常感谢。中共当局需要他帮助松动对中共的制裁。他与其达成协议，作为交换我被交给他。他毕竟还是做过一些努力，我认为克林顿属于比较好的政治家。
在美国您喜欢吗?
每个地方都有它的优缺点。在华盛顿的唐人街，我身边有很多中国人，这里有各种各样的人，一小部分是接受中共大使馆的赞助，另外的人一向公开批判中共政权，大约80%不喜欢中共政府，但是又不想激怒它。
在这里也会受到监视吗?
是的，很多。可能比过去东德还要严重得多。
发表于德国《绿色和平》杂志2011年第三期。采访魏京生的原始连接：
（魏京生基金会谨向帮助翻译此文的魏姗姗表示感谢。当年，为了营救她的大哥魏京生出狱，魏姗姗曾倾家荡产，在世界各地奔走呼吁。）
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China: Tyrants Must be Destroyed
-- Wei Jingsheng spent 18 years in jail. This well-known Chinese dissident holds doubting attitudes about the idea that peaceful resistance could overcome suppression.
Because he dared to advocate democracy and publicly call the then Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping a dictator in the 1970’s, the current 61 year-old Wei Jingsheng spent many years as political prisoner. In 1997, he was released due to pressure from the then US President Bill Clinton. Since then, he has been living in Washington DC.
Mr. Wei, we now see one revolution after the other in the Arab world. Is the Chinese government frightened?
Oh yes, very much so. The government censors all Internet communication and many Chinese have not heard the news.
In Egypt the military played a key role. Could it start a revolution in China someday?
That is what the communist party has feared for a long time. It reorganized the military. The main difference is that the Chinese military has become a private army of the party and is not committed to the state as it is in Egypt.
You had to spend 18 years in prison. What did you experience?
The physical violence was left to the other prisoners, who were forced to beat me up. But the psychological torture was even worse. Many political prisoners can’t stand it. In my case a heart disease was diagnosed. Then Deng Xiaoping ordered my relocation and I was kept in a prison above 3000 meters (in order to aggravate it).
You became heart diseased in prison?
Yes and more: all my teeth fell out during my detention. Everybody says: oh you have such beautiful teeth -- but they are all fake (laughs). Also I have liver problems and diabetes. Here in the US it is rather impossible for me to get health insurance. It would cost a fortune.
Did your family visit you in prison?
They were allowed to after I requested that for years. My mother already had passed away at that time. My sisters and my brother visited me sometimes. My father was very old and could not visit me, which maybe was better. He is very emotional and might have made some risky remarks.
Your father was a convinced communist and had high rank. How did he see your actions?
Deep in his heart he was on my side. But nonetheless he always said that I would fail and that it was pointless to protest.
You spent a long time in solitary confinement. How did you manage to get along with people after such a long time?
I never had the feeling that I had lost contact with other people completely. There were my wardens. Though they were officially not on my side, they were still human beings with human feelings.
You criticize the western states' trade with China. How should they deal with China? Should they isolate it?
It is ok to trade. But trade should be on fair terms. Much more happens beyond our imagination.
You once said that we now not only have to worry about the democracy in China but also about the democracy in the West.
Yes. There is little to expect from the Western states, they are busy making deals with China. Especially from Angela Merkel, as a former citizen of GDR (East Germany), I would have expected much more. But instead she is closer to the Chinese regime than the US. And not only the politicians are being bought by big business -- also some human rights organizations, some I don’t recognize anymore. Ten years ago, they would have done much more. Now they even speak for the dictators. The consequence is that the reputation of the democratic states is damaged in the third world countries.
Last year, the dissident Liu Xiaobo received the Nobel peace prize. You criticized that – why?
Many other would have deserved the prize even more than Liu. There is a misconception in the West: They always think so-and-so is a rebel against the regime within China -- he must be someone special. But that is nonsense. Think for yourself: If a dissident is able to act and write articles against the regime, that is only because he has made a deal and compromised with the regime. For a long time, Liu's articles have been approved by the Chinese government. Liu is used by the regime. The regime often builds its "favorite opponents" from the ones that call for peaceful resistance. This is its way to control and subvert the real opposition forces.
Peaceful resistance will not work out then?
It is understandable that people hope to solve problems in a rational and peaceful way. But first we must define "rational." Rational, peaceful resistance only works when you're dealing with people acting rationally. Tyrants do not act rationally, we cannot deal with them rationally. You have to destroy them in order to establish a society that respects the rational. And even if you have established a democratic system, you will still have to use force, such as the police or military. This dream of abolishing force forever is like the dream of communism -- it ultimately leads to the opposite conclusion: dictators triumphed with victory and people suffering more from violence. Especially for you Germans -- I ask you, could you end the Nazi regime peacefully and non-violently?
So is this a call to arms to the Chinese people?
No, it is not. The Chinese already know themselves that they won’t get further with peaceful actions. But even a strike is a form of violent resistance -- and very effective. Tens of thousands of people blocking the streets -- would you call that a peaceful demonstration? And that worked. What the people in China need is a real strategy to get what they need and not just words preaching peaceful resistance. The perception of the West and the Chinese in this respect grows further and further apart. It goes even so far that people who promote peaceful resistance in China are either thought to be puppets of the regime, or it is assumed that they only want to get money from the West.
Financial support for resistance groups is useless?
You need more than that. Take Joschka Fischer for example. He and some of his party colleagues supported these people in the past. But when he became foreign minister and had real power to do something, he simply did nothing. He always passed on the responsibility. That really disappointed me. In the end, he turned out to be a cheap politician.
But US president Clinton took you to the west.
Yes, for that I am very grateful. But he also cut a deal with the Communist regime. The regime wanted his help to ensure that the sanctions against it would be loosened. In exchange, he got me. But after all he did something. I consider Clinton as one of the better politicians.
How do you like the US?
Every place has its pros and cons. The good thing is that in Washington Chinatown here I live among fellow-countrymen. But also here are different kinds of people. Some are financially supported by the Chinese embassy. Others openly criticize the Chinese government. The majority, around 80 percent, don’t like the regime, but don’t want to upset it either.
Is there a lot of spying on each other?
Oh yes, a lot. Probably even worse than the GDR (laughs).
The interview was conducted by Jens Lubbadeh
Published in the 3rd issue of 2011 of Greenpeace Magazine in Germany. Original link of the interview:
